AUFZUGEN / LIFTS
Hi Residents / Anwohnern
Please pass on / Bitte weiterleiten.
D: Ich bin gerade zuruck nach Muenchen gekommen & MHG Brief 19.07
gelesen, (29.07 an uns geliefert), wegen. Aufzug/Lift ersetzung,
dass verlangt Antwort bei Fri. 16. 08. Wir haben MHG geschrieben, wir
brauchen ein bischen mehr Zeit zu denken, Sommerferien- und Urlaubsbedingt.
E: I just returned to Muenchen & read MHG letter of 19.07 delivered 29.07
which asks for a signed response by Friday 16 Aug re. lifts replacement
We wrote MHG we need a bit more time to think, re that & holiday period etc.
D: Ich habe Fragen & Vorschlage daran, aber noch nicht Zeit mit MHG
& Nachbarn zu diskutieren & fragen. Sie auch moeglich ?
E: I have questions & suggestions, which I've had no time to
ask, or discuss with MHG or other residents yet. Maybe you too ?
D: Ich vorschlage nicht in Eile zu unterschreiben, aber erst ideen diskutieren,
es ist Urlaub Donnerstag & schoen wetter. Vorschlage fuer eine Zeit ?
oder ideen an diese Liste <holz@berklix....>
E: I suggest don't rush to sign those forms just yet, It's a holiday
Thursday, & nice weather to discuss tomorrow. Suggestions for a time ?
Or send your ideas to our mail list <holz@berklix....>
Ideas / Ideen : http://www.berklix.org/holz/lift/
D: Entschuldigen dass diess unten meist nicht in Deutsch
ueberstezt ist, (Ausser Schraeg-Schrift) Kein Zeit !, aber wir
koennen im mail liste oder zusammen in
Deutsch oder English reden.
E: Sorry this has mostly not been translated to German,
no time, we can discuss on mail list or
in person in German or English.
This is to stimulate:
Genuine Improvements Tenants Could Pay
Increased Rent For,
(But We Probably Will Not Get Most Unless We Discuss & Ask
Echte Verbesserungs Vorschlagen :
Money / Geld
with 2 Doors 2 Turen fü Zwischen-
geschoss for some lifts.
- ( Doors both sides for split
level floors, as seen from same lift manufacturer since
1985 between Tengelmann & garage ) Wie zwischen
Tengelman & tiefgarage
- All residents & visitors see our non mezzanine
lifts (where you have to walk up half a floor) as cheap
& hard on disabled people (wheel- chairs, crutches,
bad backs etc), & moving baby prams, furniture &
shopping, suitcases, beer crates, dish washers, washing
machine, big TVs etc.
- Lift replacement time is ideal to cut a new door in
concrete, opposite entrance door.
- Optionally also cut 2 new doors to cellar levels.
(Once a lift with metal doors is installed at real ground
level, it may not cost so much more to cut 2 more, this
is ideal time for it.
Top 4th Floor: Hoechste 4.
Is it planned to extend lift ? Or will it still end at 3rd
Modern lifts no longer require head- room for winding
wheels above the lift with cable connecting to roof; eg
some lifts now have hydraulic cylinders at sides, with a
wheel above cylinder, & cable connected to floor, see
improved design on some MVV etc.
Presumably others could have wheels each side at top of
shaft, with a loop over, connected to base of lift.
If not Mezzanine, fit a
Deeper Tiefer lift
Not smaller as when lift at Holz- str
19 was replaced.
- Example lift at Holz- Str 27 d: (Gall &
Heckelmann, 450 Kg / 6 Personen, Baujahr 1984, Fabr
8178307.) Measurements suggest ~ 32 cm at back of shaft
is unused, after allowing same space as at front for
clearances. More space for big wheel- chairs, baby prams,
- (Some wheel- chairs can be big, with foot rests in
front & or small wheels behind &/or motorised.
Winzerer-str (cheap rental block) lift in 1985 had lifts
better than ours, window & back doors un-lockable by
haus-meister, (to prevent overcrowding by excess humans),
to take occasional larger furniture etc. Not a new idea
even in 1985 !
- E: A deeper lift would take more furniture, less up
stair by hand by removal firms, less damage to walls.
D: Tiefer lfit (wegen 2 Turen) wuerd grosse meuble stuck
nehmen, mit als neben effekt, weniger beschaedigung an
More Air ! Mehr Luft !
Air Slots: Present lift has 4 x 3 x 19cm long x ~ 2.5 mm
wide. No air moves.
What improvement will the new one offer ? Old one is
inadequate to even remove smells, & if trapped in
lift with up to 6 people the oxygen would run out fast.
(English lifts decades back already had a trap door in
roof to escape by & or get more air if trapped.) (Air
fans will fail if power fails).
Softer Doors Sanfter Turen:
Will the doors have decent pressure sensitive doors along
entire door length ? Not our present painful doors, &
not the dumb 2 hole system with 2 red light beams, which
is cheap & works but poorly for vertical humans with
oblique legs in office blocks, & worse for fragile
home equipment & shopping & children.
"Sicherheitsturen" Im brief, also wermutlich Ja - aber Welche Art ?
See New lift
Emergency number "Notrufsysteme"
What better contact will we have in an emergency than now
? None at present except orange button & loud-
See New lift
- Costs attributable for _genuine_ improvements can be
contributed to by tenants.
- What Improvements will be purchased with our extra
rent money ?
Welche Verbesserungen wuerde mit unser extra miet Geld
A correct percentage of costs for mere replacement due to
fair wear & tear should be paid from owner's
accumulated reserves on rent charged since 1985.
- Emergency contact details & TUV Stempel safety
certificate were removed from lift months back,
suggesting lift replacement may be largely to reduce
maintenance cost after usage for 28 years; which is not
"Improvement" chargeable to tenants but replacement
repair chargeable to owners IMO.
- ( Maybe the old lift maintenance company put in a
higher bid to continue maintaining old lifts, which MHG
may have declined, triggering replacement rather than
maintenance ? )
Charging 76% of lift replacement cost to tenants as
`Improvement' seems High:
Warum sollen mieter 76% zahlen ? Meist ist ersetzungen
arbeit, nicht wirklich verbesserungen ?
- Surely most of the cost should have been covered by
the normal sinking fund for normal building maintenance.
Why after 28 years rent since 1985 is so little money
there for Instandsetzung ?
- Have owners perhaps mistakenly withdrawn too much
income, & not set aside enough rent over the years
for eventual repairs, (which is their responsibility, not
- Or did garage repair cost so much ? That derived from
poor initial construction practice , & concrete
corrosion inc. lack of tar round drains that was obvious
but left to get worse for years. Not tenants' fault if
the Instandsetzung fund ran low paying for repairs.
- I don't know if the books have been inspected by
tenants to look at general maintenance costs ? I've been
here since '85 but not my speciality, I'm an
- Tenants should contribute to components of cost that
are genuine improvement, but not costs of replacement
necessitated by normal usage. How much if any of 76% cost
proposed will be to pay for genuine improvements as above
? Not just replacement/repair ?
- That New lifts will be quieter (by
numerically how much is not stated in db ?) & more
energy efficient, may be misleading. It's probably
impossible to buy new lifts of poor 1984 quality now.
Claiming to replace the lifts as 76% tenant chargeable
"Improvement" does not seem very plausible.
Any Other Questions Observations Notes You Have ?
- If we are to have new lifts we should
ensure we get worthwhile improvements, not replacement lifts
merely quieter & energy saving but lacking other Features.
- Will proposed extra rent money Actually buy Improvements
? Which ? or is this extra rent mostly for replacement cheap
lifts with minimal improvements that should be paid for by
owners, not tenants ?
Andere Fragen / Bemerkungen / Info Sie Haben ?
Post to the mail list
as we don't want to inconvenience MHG by causing delay, but
it would be nice to assemble a list of questions in German to
Several people answered quickly within hours to mail list, & to door, & by phone, with
questions & facts & opinions. Thanks to all! , A few
notes from that:
A new lift can be seen at Holz-Str 19.
- To access if no key, go through garage level 2.
- Made by Kone - German Site It has an
EcoDisc badge (FWIW?).
- Apparently cutting concrete (eg as
would be needed for a door) tends to cost about 1000 Euro per
- It would be necessary to check the Static, (I
guess remaining concrete would be strong enough ? but I'm an
electronic turned computer engineer, not a structural
- Probably a lot of the steel is already ordered.
(maybe no big deal, most or all still needed ?, just
more for 2nd door etc ? Biggest hindrance I guess might be to
get planners to rethink, but if planners happen to have not
asked users who will Pay, till a project is completely
planned & finalised, that would be planners' failure, not