Munich Saturday/Friday Beer Gardeners
(& Indoors in cold, wet, &
Every Saturday or Friday & odd extra days too.
Indoors when too cold/ wet & in
Please do Not
mail the author questions, Read the page
below for answers. Author has no time for repetitive email
questions, when he should be doing paid computer work
, at his
screen, sorry ! - Please ask the organisers
or others At the Beer garden
over a beer, when we're happy to chat, de-focused from
- WE'RE SELECTIVE ! : You want to
socialise with people you'll get on with ? Us too ! Various
types don't suit you ? Us too ! So both you And the group
retain rights to decline, review, withdraw membership
- SUMMARY: English speaking
(relaxed & fluent) multi-
national, lively, intelligent, non smokers, no
- The mail line footer defines us, (with occasional
variation on what can be crammed on one line), eg: Fluent
English speaking international bright lively non
- NOT GEA. Please do
Not recruit more/ most GEA people !
- There's Lots of other
English clubs people can join.
- Some of us are English .
- All of us can speak English
- Some can speak German.
- Some are German,
- Some are or have been eg: American, Austrian,
Canadian, Chinese, English,
French, German, Iraqi, Irish, Pakistani, Scots,
Singapore, Spanish, Swedish, Syrian, Welsh, etc.
- We are not a linguists group, but random
Just ENGLISH SPEAKING Not German
- Speak English with us. You don't need to be a native
English speaker though; natives of Arabic, Chinese,
French, German, Japanese, Spanish, etc languages all
- Germans who join us come to speak English, not
If you want to speak German, we are Not the right group
- Native English speakers who want to inflict their
German on us are Not Welcome !
- Native German speakers who can speak English, but
don't, should join other groups.
- Talking in German for long, would dilute the
group, (as GEA was long ago
Germanised, then failed).
- To speak German, don't join us, join innumerable
other clubs run in Munich Germany, where about
80% of toward 2 million people are native German
- Disagree ?
Fluent English Speaking
- Flakey English grammar is not so bad: Better you
get the grammar wrong, than bore us waiting,
searching for the right phrase.
- We do not correct people. That would break up
conversation. We're Not an unpaid language school.
There's plenty of English teachers in Munich you can
- We do not make speeches. ! We're not Munich toast
- Do not bring friends who can only speak German,
that's not fair to us (or them) !
Can you switch to German if stuck ?
Yes, if really stuck, for a bit, & others
listening happen to want to understand German,
(not all can or want to). German is Not the
preferred language, any more than Russian or
Turkish or Chinese, so revert to English as soon
- If you are German, & you'r English is "Iffy"
do not make the mistake of bringing more German
friends with marginal English to keep you company,
find a German speaking group.
- People are removed when they can't / don't /
won't speak English. Not just Germans, even native
English speakers are Not
Welcome to practice German on us, & are removed
if doing so.
- Thoughts on
- Disagree ?
NON SMOKERS. Exclusively ! Do NOT bring smoker
- NON SMOKERS
- Do NOT Bring Smokers ! Not even outside ! Some of us
eg are allergic
&/or hate smoke. Most of us
do not want to be near, even outside.
- Do Not Smoke just before arrival, Do not nip out for
smokes & return, breath stinking of smoke.
(It's impossible to avoid the death breath of a
smoker sat next to you, who turns to talk to you on same
bench). Smokers should buy nicotine chewing gum for the
evening, or Not Come, or leave us to go home before they
go well away down wind to smoke.
- (Restaurants that
were smoke free before Bavaria's 1st half hearted ban
& later Bavaria's 2nd more rigorous ban.
- Disagree ?
- We are mostly professionals, mostly intelligent
(debate any implied associativity, or assert any lack of
logical connectivity over a beer ;-)
- We're not ``politically correct', Mental strait
jackets imposed by others not accepted.
We speak real English not crippled by American (or,
increasingly also by British too) politicians' political
correctness, We call a spade a spade, (Which we
mean as An English noun, related to a shovel, not an
American noun as racial slang) We talk about the
sex (not gender) of a thing (if anyone gives a flying
monkey's ;-) & if anyone asks for a Rest Room or
Bathroom, they'll likely be teased that if they needed to
rest or bathe, that was best done at home first ;-) Pubs
& have toilets, but not baths & beds ;-)
- We do not bring kids & babies making a racket
& interrupting & & distracting sensible
conversation to the mundane.
- Disagree ?
- We do Not drink to get drunk,
- `Head bangers' groups exist elsewhere ;-)
- Seriously abusive behaviour not tolerated, drunk or
- We do Not encourage (or discourage ;-) alcohol
consumption, most drink beer, author sometimes
drinks Alkohol- frei beer , a few drink wine, a few drink
Rabarba- schoerle (Rhubarb with fizz) etc. Coffee's fine
if you don't want alcohol. We won't push you to drink
alcohol, though obviously you have to buy Something, at
least mineral water, to pay the pub for the
- We're not averse to a lively debate/ argument but
only if people remain intelligent & Listen too, &
no one monopolises conversation.
- Motor mouths not needed. Alcohol lubricated non stop
talkers Not wanted.
- There's pretty much nothing we consider off limits to
discuss. If you're easily offended, you might have a
problem, though we likely may not ;-)
- Disagree ?
- Come with an open lively mind,
- Don't be stuffy, If you want "Sie" rather than "Du"
(Not that we'll be speaking German anyway), Join some other
group, not us !
Move seats a few times during the evening. Make _your_
contribution to enlivening topics & debate !
Sitting at the same seat all evening can be stultifying
both for you And your neighbours - move around !
- You may not be bored yet.
- Others might not be bored with you yet.
- But others may. Or maybe they want to talk to
someone else too, & you more later.
- Those stuck against a wall can't circulate.
- Maybe someone next to a free seat is bored &
would welcome you moving there ?
- Make your contribution: don't just sit there,
Move On !
- Get up & you should Expect your seat to be
`stolen' by someone else, they are Supposed To! It
makes for variety for all.
- "That's my seat!" Is Not acceptable! Just rescue
your beer and mat & move
to a new seat.
- If you don't like it, Don't come.
- Disagree ?
DO NOT PHONE US EACH WEEK FOR VENUE
- Are you too lazy to get your own email ?
- Then you'r not mentally lively &/or adept enough
for the group.
- Join some other group, not us.
- We have no time to answer phones or SMS people
- We do Not update a web page each week. (This
author often did many years back, but it was more work,
+ Our email list relays to whole group in just
minutes, & not to whole public on web sites, some of
who do not fit group).
- We do Not want you phoning us each week, interrupting
us, just just for the venue announcement. Get yourself a
free email address *you don't even need a computer for
that, you can access it via an Internet cafe)
- Join List
- Disagree ?
DISAGREE & WANT TO ARGUE ABOUT
- If you wish to suggest & discuss venues, &
help choose, announce & host venues, Please do, You
are very welcome. Please volunteer yourself to BG Organisers.
But, If you wish to vigorously Argue & Assert Your
- You have the right to leave us without
- We have the right to remove you without
If You Argue With BG Organisers,
about BG Organisation, & vigorously Assert your non
organiser's opinion eg:
You will be removed as a liability,
- We should accept everyone without
- We should organise things Your way
- Your opinion on organising carries as much
weight as organisers
- Our regularly working organisers are our chief asset, far more
valuable than non organisers.
- Do Not annoy, waste time of, or risk demotivating
organisers from organising.
- The organisers have
invested much time organising, organisers time is much more valuable than
that of non organisers, & organisers opinions far outweigh the
opinions of non organisers, when it comes to
It's not unfair or biased, but is fact, it's
- A reward to the few organisers who Work for our common
- An incentive to non organisers to please sometimes
volunteer to help organise next venue.
- You are welcome to Buy the right to assert
opinions on organising, by first working free as an
- (Some saw an old club (GEA) wither from it's open
door policy, tolerating misfits, a few malign, &
sundry over opinionated non organisers. An object lesson
to avoid repeating. )
FAQ - Frequently Asked Question: "Do
you really want new people to come ?"
- YES, we want people who will fit the
- No, we don't want people who will not fit the
- You decide if the group may be for you.
- If so join the list, come
to events, if it's not for you, leave list
- Don't have a buyers expectation of a gushing advert,
hyping us to you: We are Not selling you something !
- Unlike some other sites, we do not advertise at you,
or harvest or sell your mail address etc, & we charge
no membership or event entrance etc.
- We just state who we are, (partly defined by who we
are Not), & you decide to join us or not.
- We offer Free organisation of events, but just for
those who fit the group; Many friends attend
- We are dependent on the time organisers donate us free, so we protect our
group & especially organisers.
- One occasional rogue can demotivate organisers, & spoil the fun many innocents
- Another club died from an
open door policy tolerating misfits, so: we are cautious:
Not just the individual but also the group retains a
right to decide if the other is a fit or a misfit.
- If you stay in the group, & preferably invest
time helping us organise, your experience will later
carry weight to discuss with organisers.
- The author has been a major clubs organiser for
decades, contributed masses of free time to club &
event organising, as have numerous other organisers too.
- Non & prospective members should Not email us to
discuss policy. Just join list or not, Join the group a
few times, & if not for you, leave list.
- Members who've attended events for a while are
welcome to discuss with organisers
preferably at an event, not by email.
- If drinking inside Mark Your Beer
Mats Avoid mistakes, remind your neighbours too,
especially if waiter does not do it for you. In every big
group, some drinkers sometimes forget to pay enough,
occasionally some rogues may deliberately not pay enough,
occasionally some waiters cheat too, (one waiter tried to
bill us for a spare cheeseburger !) Most drinkers &
waiters are honest. Cheats exist too. Mistakes happen too,
Alcohol doesn't aid memory & counting. Mark the mat.
- Join the mail
list where we announce this week's venue.
- In dodgey weather or crowded venues, be on time
&/or note the organisers mobile number
from the announcement. We go when we want.
Most other beer garden indexes are little to no use for us.
as most other indexes:
- Full of hype & gloss, & prioritise history,
culture & other irrelevance, (may be nice to know,
but we choose by our own beer garden criteria).
- Others don't warn if short
- Others in German language, well not all our people
speak German, or want to read yet more German. (One index
is even in faked mis-spelled Bavarian, indecipherable if
you'r new/ only read Hoch Deutsch ie proper German, not
mis spelt dialect).
- Fraudulent short measures are Very common in rip off
Munich, where even government is on the O'fest rip off,
charging way over 100 mass (DE
of tax per 100 litres of beer sold, instead of ensuring
proper measures served. The locals are so used to be
ripped off, most indexes don't mention it.
- Most indexes don't list if a Beer Garden delivers bad
service while priding itself on being Bavarian, some have
obnoxious staff one
Hence this Index is Not verbose enthusiastic gush to promote
tourism, written by PR weenies, paid for breweries &
drinking trade. It's the opposite: It's notes on what's right
& more importantly Wrong with places.
- Do they serve Wrong beer or bad beer ?
Breweries merged to lessen choice for customers.
(Same complaint we had in UK, when CAMRA started), Jim
(an organiser) dislikes Franziskaner beer, (& I've
chucked away much of 2 mass dunkles beers at Stigl- maier),
so some F. places marked to aid selection
- It's been suggested we should remove some beer gardens
from the index, indeed this author too has been tempted to,
but on consideration we think that's
not best solution, as certain problems can be worked round
sometimes, & not listing problems just leaves us
mystified & memories fading, till perhaps we get bitten
again by same problem, plus inevitably everywhere will fail
at some time, nowhere can be consistently perfect, so better
to just list know good And bad points & people can decide
where to go on a per visit basis.
- Listen ... we speak English.
- (OK, That won't help you much
in an Irish pub, so ...)
- Ask the waiter for reservation name BERKLIX.
- If you don't know what organisers
look like, check organisers web sites,
& or use a mobile phone.
- At most beer gardens, we sit
over the back, in the self service area, near the Kid's
Play Area (KPA) often, if there is one, unless otherwise
announced. Near the kids area started 'cos a few people
used to have kids with them occasionally, but it's usually
also easier to reserve more space for unknown quantities of
people, in what is usually the quieter less smokey (but
more noisey) KPA area. Don't let mention of KPA in mails
scare you We are Not a child oriented
family group There's usually no kids now, Some are semi
allergic to kids, certainly in bulk, We often sit near the
KPA just for more space, less smokers, & despite the
Mostly on SATURDAYS
(2/3 prefer that,
1/3 Fridays, though we started on Fridays. Sometime we move
to Fridays to avoid big football
matches on TV
s in pubs on Sat.)
Default nominal approximate start times (unless otherwise
announced) subject to fine tuning discussion (raise topic in
a Beer Garden!):
- May & June: 18:00
- July & August: 18:30 / 19:00
- September: (politician's fake summer time) 18:00 =
17:00 (solar time)
If still awrm in winter time will appear a lot earlier of
course on clock, but not so much earlier, when you remember
to think solar & not compare with politician's fake
- Winter & Indoors Starts:
Some arrive earlier & help reserve space, & some
later. Many of us are English
, no need
to be very punctual, it's a beer garden, not a business
appointment ! If you arrive before organisers
, get us a big enough good table away
from smoke etc, & keep an eye out for organisers
, & other regular beer gardeners.
- We are an Adults Group. Not a families group for
- Find some more
appropriate group for
parents & families; Not us.
- Join us alone: Pay a baby sitter/ child minder, or Take
turns with other parents, neighbours, etc, one to stay with
kids, others going out.
- Join us in the evening to eat, drink & converse to
adult themes & schedules, Not in mid afternoon with
Please Do Not Ask For Start Times Convenient For Kids
We've tried that various times over years, each time it
- Many Beer Gardeners skipped events completely when
parents prevailed on us for an early start to suit
children. Even stalwarts came later.
- Parents are ureliable, quite likely to not show,
despite we've committed to change plans for various
couples, they fail to commit to us, put their kids
various problems first, disrupt us with no shows, after
they asked to disrupt us to start earlier - for their
- Organisers get bored waiting
very early for low turnout of parents & kids &
normal people turn up hours later or more likely don't
show that week.
- Reduced turnout, + presence of kids, discourages
turnout to subsequent events.
- Kids tire early, & some become a nuissance,
parents then leave us early to take kids home
- The depleted remainder get left: not wanting to
drink more alcohol after a too early start, regretting
they didn't start later & get more done before the
early start, (after Beer Garden started too soon, to
suit parents & kids now gone), knowing it's
inappropriate after drinking to return to continue work
(eg on computer or equipment etc) suspended earlier,
not tired yet as its still early, wondering what to do
Sometimes, we are in venues with weather that allow us to
chose Inside or Outside. If not a beer garden but a
restaurant, then we book ahead, & usually they are not
sure of the weather so book us inside by default. We may not
want inside, but that's what we get, if we don't actively ask
to change it. Inside may be too hot, Outside may or not be
what we want: We are fresh air afficionado, but outside
there's poisonous smokers wind drift, possible rain, &
Here's how we decide In Or Out:
- We're not afraid to sit in 2 groups, 1 in, 1 out.
- We're honourable enough to greet newcomers with
statement "There's also another group of us in/out
- Any attender at a BG venue can call for a vote, &
organiser must then not sit idle, but call votes For Move,
Stay, & Abstain.
- Minorities can individually go/remain in/out side,
floaters will follow where the vote & organiser
- Organiser must get up & lead majority (if for a
move), even if organiser then personaly exercises
individual right to return to previous minority
- Organiser gets an initial vote like everyone else.
- If there's a draw, Organiser gets a 2nd casting
- Votes are by public simultaneous show of hands, For,
Against & Abstain.
- Not secret/ verbal aside to organiser, hence no
bluffing/ fudging of totals.
Bad weather Start
If the weather
been bad all day, if the announcement included a fallback indoor
venue, we may automatically go
there rather later than the preferred outdoor beer garden. If
on the other hand the weather
nasty at the last minute, & we divert en route or fresh
from the Beer garden, we'll likely be at the alternate venue
pretty much on time. We're not easily dislodged from a beer
garden though, a few spots of rain may of us are used to,
from growing up much closer to the Atlantic than here :-)
Question: "I'll Be Late, How Long Will You Be There
Answer: How Late Will You Be ?
Don't Ask Me ! - We don;t know ! We're
Not Going To Commit Ourselves ! Your Problem ! Risk It Or
- Some of us may be there most of the evening if the weather is
fine, but if the Beer garden is announced in advance of
we will have no idea how long we or others will want to
- We usually leave when it's cold or dark, or bored, or
any other reason, sometime we leave very early;
occasionally we're still there even if it's raining
intermittently, but we don't wait forlornly for people
who might arrive, when we're thinking of leaving.
- If you want to encourage us to wait for you, send
friends in advance to keep us company, (perhaps pretty or
handsome friends, with spare food, drink, or sparkling
repartee ;-) that'll encourage the group to stay on ...
if the weather's
- You're allowed to bring your own food to most or all
Munich beer gardens we announce, so you don't need to eat
at home first !.
- Avoid always arriving late & expecting us to
wait, half bored at a largely empty table. At least
sometimes, arrive near-ish to time, & give organisers the benefit of your company at the
beginning, rather than the end, when we've had enough,
& are bored waiting for late-comers to drink up.
- On good evenings, it's some times a problem defending
our table space when beer gardens fill up. Arrive before
we are likely to be pestered by strangers for our spare
- Do not follow the example of one unknown idiot, who
told no one he'd be coming, arrived over an hour late, to
a beer garden
closed by the Wirt (Landlord) on a cold day for lack of
business, where we could buy no more beer. That person
was actually indignant that we'd gone, & hadn't
waited just in case someone we neither knew nor expected
turned up ! We're not daft - we don't wait on the off
chance, particularly in poor weather.
- Join or Leave Mail
List or Other
- Beer gardens are announced at short notice on the
- The organisers usually try to
announce venues on Thursday afternoons, as it's
convenient for those who only get email at home.
- In spring & autumn it's hard to plan ahead,
sometimes we delay announcements to Friday, while
waiting on the weather,
deciding if a more sheltered beer garden, or different
inside fallback options are needed.
- It's best, at least for spring & autumn, if not
for summer too, to [also] join your
work address rather than [or as well as] your home
- If you stick to just a winter home based address,
you'll also miss spontaneous short notice mid week beer
(`Cell Phone' to use the original American name,
spuriously renamed as `Mobile Phone' in Britain, &
mistakenly called a `Handy' by Germans using wrongly
adopted English ).
Yes we have mobiles. No we don't want numbers listed
here, ask us personally if you feel the need.
People who claim mobiles are essential for finding
friends in a beer garden are out of their tree, mobiles
are merely a convenience for the caller, but
non-essential, & disturbing to table conversation of
others adjacent to person called.
The beer gardens started before people had mobile
phones. When we didn't know where the group was, we
simply walked methodically, slowly & sequentially up
& down rows, looking at faces, this method works well
even in the very biggest Munich beer gardens, (IE Hirsch-
Garten, Chinesicher Turm, Augustiner, etc). You might
also by chance meet others of your friends who may want
to join us, or even people you hope may become friends
SMS (Short Message Service)
If you want to know where we are: phone us, don't SMS us,
some (inc. this Author) do not respond to SMS.
If you are interested to find a gateway we could use
to automatically (not just manually) gateway email
announcements to SMS announcements: Do realise, SMS's
cost, so who will pay ? There's more to this than just
being an MS-Windows end user who uses some SMS gateway to
send one off SMSs. SMS gates make money by forcing people
to read adverts, so the entry format must change
periodically to force you to read adverts on line. It
would be a thankless task to keep updating the robot
interface. Also no doubt German operators would declare
I have no free time to write & maintain the
required scripts to interface to a gate, but if some
other programmer wants to do the programming, I can
provide the 24/7 Internet connected server base (FreeBSD
Unix), with whatever Perl/Java etc type stuff is
Venues are decided where possible at previous beer
gardens, by all who intend to come to next week's venue,
failing that (& when weather changes) by the Beer Garden Organisers to this schedule:
- Organisers normally start discussing/ deciding next
Saturday/Friday's venue on Tuesday.
- Sometimes when the weather forecast
is indeterminate, we delay till Wednesday.
- We normally announce by early/ mid Thursday
- We try to spread the selection geographically. More
weight attaches, if the venue nominated is from a regular,
&/or not particularly near the home/work of the
nominator, it being easy, but not so helpful if people just
nominate their local beer garden.
- If the weather's
good, we often go further to a cooler open park location,
if the weather is
marginal, to a more sheltered one in town.
- If you have a suggestion for a future venue, best
suggest it on a Saturday/Friday to one of the organisers
- It's hard in the dark at the end of an evening, to
recognise & remember who & how many will commit to
coming to which next venue, so it's helpful if those
involved subsequently mail the organisers saying EG "Include me in the list
of faces for people to look for at next venue [XYZ], - I
expect to be there roughly on time"
- In the very rare liklihood none of the numerous organisers will be available to co-ordinate
a decision, we would try to forecast & announce that in
advance, & invite list members to step forward &
announce something, so that an opportunity is not
- If you nominate a venue by email, DO include the web
address ! If you fail to include web address, organisers
will likely will ignore the suggestion, as you would waste
their time searching & perhaps dis-ambiguating.
2002 Autumn, after beer garden weather
ceased, we continued to meet each Friday in a variety of
venues, some of us going on to GEA Stammtisch
later, (but many
We became an all weather group.
2006 we dumped smokey dives inc GEA Stammtisch, & used smoke free
Then the law changed (2008 or 2009) & most decent
places became smoke free, & our venues widened.
2010, January, We switched from Friday to Saturday, as
avoiding pubs with football on TV & avoiding pubs with Franziskaner
Weissbier became too much trouble, & more people
- In beer gardens, you can just turn up, but if you are
nice enough to tell organisers in advance,
it can help them know how many adjacent tables to try to get,
& who to look for.
For indoor venues with seating booked by Organisers
- Please Always Reserve Seats With Organisers (Not with operator of the
- When you'r probable coming but not certain yet, don't
remain silent, give organisers clues
we can add up: We prefer Not to hear " likely maybe may
might possibly probably ". We prefer numeric estimates of
probability you will turn up. 3 people guessing 33% is
one extra seat booked.
- Organisers always answer each request for seats
inside, normally with a Yes, sometimes also increasing
seats booked at venue.
- If organiser does not confirm your request: Your mail
did not reach us. You Are Not Booked! You Have No Seat.
Please phone organiser & book seats.
Please also report mail failure either to
postmaster@YourDomain &/or postmaster@berklix. Any
postmaster requires full unchanged bounce headers
& error messages, The actual texts beyond, written by
humans are not of much relevance & can be
- No problem with people who normally book, & just
Those who Never book, who regularly turn up at reserved
venues, get removed from mail list:
- They disrupt, needing to extend or shrink guessed
- They squash others, & will be moved away when
booked people arrive.
- Muenchen is rightly proud of the Koenig Ludwig Erlass
(when the King of Bavaria granted Munich brewers permission
to sell their beer under the trees they'd planted to keep
their cellars cool, on condition they allowed citizens to
bring their own food). Rather unique, not the case in most
of Germany or Britain
- Sadly, to balance that pride, there is the Shame of
- Lots of beer gardens & beer halls often seriously
short measure, particularly at Oktoberfest. Some O'fest
tourists might not care, & go home boasting of having
drunk more mass of beer... but if a mass is 0.9 to 0.7
litres as the evening wears on & froth replaces beer,
it's an empty boast.
- Traditional bier steins, opaque, such as at Nock-
herberg stark bier fest, are ideal for short measures. Too
many of mine were short measures. Better to buy stark bier
from a bottle, poured into a glass, a half litre you can
- Magazine articles in 2008 estimate O'fest fraud is
worth around 5 million euros, or .75 cents fraud per mass,
& the city council don't much care, not looking to
enforce an average to the mark, but just monitoring if way
- Gross consistent regular short measuring that would get
any pub in England closed down promptly by the Weights
& Measures Inspectorate, are tolerated.
- On the other hand, the Reinheits- Gebot (Purity law)
ensures (theoretically cleaner beer than in UK (though ask
me over a beer, about a UK chemical lorry driver I met
regularly delivering to a Munich brewery ;-)
- Anti short measures club http://vgbe.de/ costs 6 Euro a
year membership. Less than a short mass ! Prost !
All Link to S-Bahn, U-Bahn, Tram, Bus, arrive here, A further
click takes you to MVV
- Paulaner Dunkel, 450 calories per litre.
- Paulaner Hell, 420 calories per litre.
- Paulaner Oktoberfest beer, 500 calories per litre.
- Paulaner Salvator (Stark), 710 calories per litre.
- Paulaner Hell non alcoholic, 260 calories per
- Paulaner WeiÃbier non alcoholic, 200 calories
- Guinness 370 calories per litre.
- Guinness mid strength (the correct name, 2.8% ABV) 280
calories per litre.
- Murphy's 370 calories per litre.
- Beamish 360 calories per litre.
- White Bread about 265 calories per 100 grams (about 4
slices). So a Mass of Salvator is equivalent to about a
large loaf of bread!